Retrieved from
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.folklore.computers/rOivGYRZnT4/4EzO6gURalEJ
on 2016-01-30. Email addresses have been mangled by Google Groups;
I've repaired the ones that can be unambiguously deduced. Any instance
of "...@" in this text should be considered suspect.
This is part of a thread from alt.folklore.computers, between September 23 and October 7, 1999.
Peter Seebach recalls a 375-point "Adventure" for the Heath H89; this would
have been Walt Bilofsky's expansion of Jim Gillogly's C port, taxonomized as
GIBI0375.
Rich Alderson reports that at UChicago he once owned a map of Adventure
from 1977. Being pre-1978, this was probably a map of the 350-point game
without any of Long's expansions (certainly not the 751-pointer, which
doesn't seem to have been completed until 1980).
Rich Alderson also reports that one Ralph Gorin had a map of Adventure,
"on D-size paper" (22 x 34 inches), at Tresidder Union at Stanford.
("Tech Square" refers to MIT Building NE43, where Zork originated, but
I admit I don't get the joke.)
James Powell reports that he worked at UChicago starting in 1987, and
his impression was that Dave Long and "Michele Medanski" (Michele Madansky?)
were responsible for its development. My current hypothesis is that
Madansky (who apparently joined UChicago in 1987) was a caretaker for
Long's code, but since Long had reached 751 points by 1980, there couldn't
have been much feature work still to do by 1987.
Peter Seebach recalls trading emails with "a guy involved with" a 550-point
version; the next few messages indicate confusion between Dave Long's 501,
Long and McDonald's 551, and Dave Platt's 550. "I think he worked at 3DO
for a while," says Seebach; this points straight to Dave Platt, who worked
at 3DO from 1990 to 1995. Further down, Charles Richmond confuses MCDO0551
with PLAT0550.
Rich Alderson gives a few biographical details on Long:
> Dave Long was an interesting guy--worked for GSB as a computer operator, and
> did the Adventure expansion in his spare time. He left Chicago for a time to
> work in the Saudi oil fields, but came back a few months before I left. He
> wouldn't allow anyone at Chicago to see the source code
James Powell adds:
> He was the director of the GSB computing services dept. [in 1987].
> The last I heard he had moved on, I don't know where. He
> kept a factory-fresh BMW motorcycle in his office! When I knew him,
> he was still working on the adventure code in his spare time,
> translating it to 'C' so that he could compile it on the VAX/VMS
> systems they were migrating to.
This approximately jibes with David Payne's story from ./1998-02-08-rec-games-int-fiction-thread.txt :
> I corresponded with David Long via email years ago while he was at the
> University of Chicago. He said he was working on a C++ version (PC) of
> Enhanced Adventure but didn't know if and when he would finish it.
===========================================================================
From: "Linards Ticmanis" <ticm...@coli.uni-sb.de>
Subject: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/23
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Does the Crowther only (i.e. scoreless, mostly a simulation, no
fantasy elements, few puzzles) 1972 version of "Adventure" for the
PDP-10(?) still exist anywhere? There was a recent discussion about
this in rec.games.int-fiction and I thought maybe somebody here has a
clue. Everything currently available seems to be derived from Don
Woods' 1977 350-points rewrite.
Any clues? Oh and if you have something it would be very nice to
upload it to ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive, the storehouse for
"interactive fiction" as I am sure many people here already know. Some
people have suggested that the code is lost.
thanks and sorry for intruding here, I figured some people here might
know.
--
Linards Ticmanis
-----------------------------------------------------
"Heaven is Best if viewed with Microsoft Internet Explorer"
(from "Children of God" sect homepage.)
===========================================================================
From: se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/23
Message-ID: <51jG3.173$lq3.25864@ptah.visi.com>#1/1
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In article <7sccil$l67$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>,
Linards Ticmanis <ticm...@coli.uni-sb.de> wrote:
>thanks and sorry for intruding here, I figured some people here might
>know.
Intruding? Seems like the right place to me.
That said, try also alt.folklore.computers.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
===========================================================================
From: jma...@aol.com (JMason)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/23
Message-ID: <19990923023157.20295.00001079@ng-bg1.aol.com>#1/1
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I have a version which runs on the Apple II which, so far as I played it,
exactly followed the version I played on a PDP-11/66. Unfortunately my Apple
II no longer works.
John Mason
Santa Maria California
===========================================================================
From: Welmoed Sisson <sis...@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/23
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Gosh, I remember playing "Adventure" at Boskone in ... let's see, it had
to be late '77 or early '78. It was a really big deal then: you got a
little coupon when you registered that allowed you 15 minutes at the
teletype terminal to play; there were about eight terminals set up in a
little room. People would get groups of four together and kibbitz so
they could play for an hour, taking turns typing for 15 minutes. At the
end of my turn I remember one of the things I ended up with was a tame
bear following at my heels!
Trying to explain to a bunch of 7th and 8th graders just how big a
deal it was to play a game on a computer is like pounding sand.
--Welmoed
===========================================================================
From: se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/23
Message-ID: <P8sG3.309$lq3.36082@ptah.visi.com>#1/1
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In article <37EA2C8F...@erols.com>,
Welmoed Sisson <sis...@erols.com> wrote:
>Gosh, I remember playing "Adventure" at Boskone in ... let's see, it had
>to be late '77 or early '78. It was a really big deal then: you got a
>little coupon when you registered that allowed you 15 minutes at the
>teletype terminal to play; there were about eight terminals set up in a
>little room. People would get groups of four together and kibbitz so
>they could play for an hour, taking turns typing for 15 minutes. At the
>end of my turn I remember one of the things I ended up with was a tame
>bear following at my heels!
Yup! That puzzle turned out to be a horrible syntax hunt.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
===========================================================================
From: Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net>
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/24
Message-ID: <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net>#1/1
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Linards Ticmanis wrote:
>
> Does the Crowther only (i.e. scoreless, mostly a simulation, no
> fantasy elements, few puzzles) 1972 version of "Adventure" for the
> PDP-10(?) still exist anywhere? There was a recent discussion about
> this in rec.games.int-fiction and I thought maybe somebody here has a
> clue. Everything currently available seems to be derived from Don
> Woods' 1977 350-points rewrite.
> Any clues? Oh and if you have something it would be very nice to
> upload it to ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive, the storehouse for
> "interactive fiction" as I am sure many people here already know. Some
> people have suggested that the code is lost.
>
According to the _UNIX Book of Games_, by Janice Windsor, ISBN: 0-13-490079-0,
Willie Crowther's program was called "Adventures". At least one interation
was written in FORTRAN IV, and that was what Willie sent to Don Woods for
enhancement.
You might try to get a hold of Willie Crowther directly to see about getting
the original source code. Don Woods might even still have a copy of the original
code he got from Crowther. Sorry, I have *no* email addresses for them, but
I am pretty sure they are still around.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
===========================================================================
From: se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/24
Message-ID: <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com>#1/1
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In article <37EACCE2...@plano.net>,
Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net> wrote:
>You might try to get a hold of Willie Crowther directly to see about getting
>the original source code. Don Woods might even still have a copy of the
>original
>code he got from Crowther. Sorry, I have *no* email addresses for them, but
>I am pretty sure they are still around.
Tragically, Crowther was trapped in a cave, because he went into a room
through a very narrow crawlspace (so narrow that he could only carry one
thing with him), and was unable to figure out a way to get out carrying
both his lantern *and* the large emerald he found.
A tragic loss to the computing community. Woods immortalized it in a puzzle
in the enhanced version of the game.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
===========================================================================
From: bto...@NOSPAM.texas.net (Bruce Tomlin)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/24
Message-ID: <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce>#1/1
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In article <anEG3.462$lq3....@ptah.visi.com>, se...@plethora.net (Peter
Seebach) wrote:
> In article <37EACCE2...@plano.net>,
> Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net> wrote:
> >You might try to get a hold of Willie Crowther directly to see about getting
> >the original source code. Don Woods might even still have a copy of the
> >original
> >code he got from Crowther. Sorry, I have *no* email addresses for them, but
> >I am pretty sure they are still around.
>
> Tragically, Crowther was trapped in a cave, because he went into a room
> through a very narrow crawlspace (so narrow that he could only carry one
> thing with him), and was unable to figure out a way to get out carrying
> both his lantern *and* the large emerald he found.
>
> A tragic loss to the computing community. Woods immortalized it in a puzzle
> in the enhanced version of the game.
ROFL!
P.S. Plugh. Or was that Plover?
===========================================================================
From: Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net>
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/25
Message-ID: <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 529336958
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References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk>
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Form@C wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:35:52 -0500, bto...@NOSPAM.texas.net (Bruce Tomlin)
> wrote:
>
> > [snip...] [sinp...] [snip...]
> >
> >ROFL!
> >
> >P.S. Plugh. Or was that Plover?
>
> PLUGH sounds about right - it was a plover's egg.
>
> XYZZY
>
Actually, to get from the well house to the room with the emerald
as big as a plovers egg, you had to say "PLUGH" to get to Y2 and
then say "PLOVER" to get to the emerald. Reverse the process to
go back.
If you care to polish your adventuring skills in the "Colossal Cave",
you can go to the following WEB site:
http://people.delphi.com/rickadams/adventure/index.html
Here you can find some maps, a little history, and a download section
that has executables for several machines in different versions, some
with source code too.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
===========================================================================
From: ge...@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/25
Message-ID: <37ec5e4c.50528164@news.shuswap.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 529489639
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se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:
>In article <37EACCE2...@plano.net>,
>Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net> wrote:
>>You might try to get a hold of Willie Crowther directly to see about getting
>>the original source code. Don Woods might even still have a copy of the
>>original
>>code he got from Crowther. Sorry, I have *no* email addresses for them, but
>>I am pretty sure they are still around.
>
>Tragically, Crowther was trapped in a cave, because he went into a room
>through a very narrow crawlspace (so narrow that he could only carry one
>thing with him), and was unable to figure out a way to get out carrying
>both his lantern *and* the large emerald he found.
That's "lantern and the *large emerald* he found.".
>A tragic loss to the computing community. Woods immortalized it in a puzzle
>in the enhanced version of the game.
Nice spoof.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
===========================================================================
From: m...@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/26
Message-ID: <FInBr3.o5@world.std.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 529603163
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EA2C8F.8B731688@erols.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Welmoed Sisson <sis...@erols.com> writes:
>Gosh, I remember playing "Adventure" at Boskone in ... let's see, it had
>to be late '77 or early '78. It was a really big deal then: you got a
>little coupon when you registered that allowed you 15 minutes at the
>teletype terminal to play; there were about eight terminals set up in a
>little room. People would get groups of four together and kibbitz so
>they could play for an hour, taking turns typing for 15 minutes. At the
>end of my turn I remember one of the things I ended up with was a tame
>bear following at my heels!
Gee, I remember working in the 'Computer game' room back then... And then
I was head of computer games for noreascon -- provided a PDT-11/150
running ZORK and a GT40 running lunar lander (downloaded from the PDT).
For a number of years following that, I provided a pdp-11 running RSTS and
a bunch of terminals and all sorts of games (I still have the system).
One of the LARPs actually included the computer system and a task which
had to be performed on it into their game...
> Trying to explain to a bunch of 7th and 8th graders just how big a
>deal it was to play a game on a computer is like pounding sand.
Tell me about it... back then it was a big deal... nowadays they
look at you and say, "So?".
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
===========================================================================
From: jeve...@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/09/27
Message-ID: <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net>#1/1
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In article <37EC356C...@plano.net>, rich...@plano.net says...
>
>If you care to polish your adventuring skills in the "Colossal Cave",
>you can go to the following WEB site:
>
> http://people.delphi.com/rickadams/adventure/index.html
>
Tom Wu had created a really accurate web re-creation of the Crowther-Woods
350 point Adventure game at http://tjwww.stanford.edu/adventure/. This was
working as recently as a couple of months ago, but this morning it isn't
available. Perhaps the server is just down, because a domain name lookup still
works.
Now excuse me while I get back to the latest issue of "Spelunking Today".
--
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett
===========================================================================
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com>
Subject: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/09/28
Message-ID: <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>#1/1
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> Tom Wu had created a really accurate web re-creation of the Crowther-Woods
> 350 point Adventure game at http://tjwww.stanford.edu/adventure/. This was
Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from
the zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the
map that someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon
with additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the
right of the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was
actually given a DEC engineering drawing designation.
I used to have a copy, but no longer can find it. If anyone has it, I'd
love to get another copy to scan and make available online.
Thanks!
Eric
===========================================================================
From: se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/09/28
Message-ID: <YubI3.1990$L85.115282@ptah.visi.com>#1/1
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In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Eric Smith <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from
>the zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the
>map that someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon
>with additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the
>right of the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was
>actually given a DEC engineering drawing designation.
I had a 375-point version on an H89, which included a special "endgame"
puzzle. I believe some Heath-related magazine had an issue with a map - and
I think it was a Heath-related magazine, because the map included the special
endgame room.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
===========================================================================
From: mle...@ridgecrest.ca.us (Michael N. LeVine)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/09/28
Message-ID: <mlevine-2809992004300001@pm409.ridgenet.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 530566028
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <YubI3.1990$L85.115282@ptah.visi.com>
Organization: RidgeNet
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
"THE DEC Profesional" magazine gave away maps at the <mumble><mumble>
DECUS with a subscription form on the end.
A credit block read
--------------------
This Dungeon map was orignally drawn in January of 1979 by Steve Roy.
Revisions to the original were made over the following months and final
changes (magic-motion) added in March. Endgame is intentionally omitted.
This drawing made January 1981.
--------------------
In article <YubI3.1990$L85.1...@ptah.visi.com>, se...@plethora.net
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
> In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
> Eric Smith <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> >Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from
> >the zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the
> >map that someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon
> >with additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the
> >right of the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was
> >actually given a DEC engineering drawing designation.
>
> I had a 375-point version on an H89, which included a special "endgame"
> puzzle. I believe some Heath-related magazine had an issue with a map - and
> I think it was a Heath-related magazine, because the map included the special
> endgame room.
>
> -s
--
Michael LeVine - mle...@ridgecrest.ca.us
"Thirty days hath September, April, June and November.
All the rest have thirty one except for Gypsy Rose Lee
and every one knew what she had" - Mel Blanc
===========================================================================
From: alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/09/29
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 530612616
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 29 2:15:12 AM CDT 1999
Reply-To: alde...@netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
<eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> writes:
>Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from the
>zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the map that
>someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon with
>additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the right of
>the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was actually given a
>DEC engineering drawing designation.
Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy of a
.... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to work
for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
Ralph Gorin had a copy, on D-size paper, hanging on the wall outside his office
in Tresidder Union (after he moved over there from CERAS). According to him,
it was SUDS output (the Stanford University Design System, licensed to DEC for
the SuperFoonly => KL10 project, which was how Dick Helliwell ended up at DEC),
which makes sense, since Don Woods was at SAIL, where SUDS was developed...
(Hey, the guys from Tech Sq. can't have *all* the bandwidth!)
Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now
===========================================================================
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@adcomsys.net>
Subject: Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave"
Date: 1999/10/03
Message-ID: <u7ll4xju6.fsf@adcomsys.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 532407606
Sender: lynn@LYNNPC
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EA2C8F.8B731688@erols.com> <FInBr3.o5@world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 938983002 209.63.28.138 (Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:36:42 MDT)
Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@adcomsys.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:36:42 MDT
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
following is reply that I received when I was trying to track down
copy of ZORK (in the late 70s). At the time I already had numerous
copies of adventure in fortran and several enhanced versions written
in pli ... ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#56
> ZORK is a PDP-10 program written in MUDDLE, a LISP-derivative language
> for which no compiler exist outside the PDP-10. It is friendly with
> the I.T.S. operating system and no other. One Tim Anderson of the
> Lab for Computer Science is its proprietor.
>
> Someone at DEC apparently took the MUDDLE source and
> transliterated it to FORTRAN. I don't know how faithful
> the transliteration is. It is supposed to b e available through
> the DEC Users group association, DECUS. A letter to them
> may turn up some information.
>
> Beware. ZORK is addictive. Untold man-hours will disappear into
> its use, and some people will decide they want to analyze the game
> itself, which is said to require a man-month or so before solutions
> and algorithms become clear.
--
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/
===========================================================================
From: James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/04
Message-ID: <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 532871053
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com>
Organization: Qwest Communications +1.303.226.6500 Denver Colorado
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
> In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
> <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> writes:
>
> >Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from the
> >zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the map that
> >someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon with
> >additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the right of
> >the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was actually given a
> >DEC engineering drawing designation.
>
> Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy of a
> .... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to work
> for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
<snip>
Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
I was told about, and briefly played an extended ADVENT game that had
been developed at the U of C, by Dave Long and Michele Medanski and
others. I've been trying to find a copy or a description of it on the
ADVENT archive sites recently, but I've come up empty. Does this ring
any bells for you, Rich, or for anyone else in a.f.c?
Thanks,
James
--
James Powell - Software Engineer/Reverse Engineering - ja...@advancedsw.com
Advanced Software Technologies, Inc.
"Best Tools. Best Service. No Compromise."
===========================================================================
From: jmfb...@aol.com
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <7tcn2n$br2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533026571
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
X-Complaints-To: ab...@rcn.com
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Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 1999 11:23:03 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com>,
James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
>
>alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>> In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
>> <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> writes:
>>
>> >Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from
the
>> >zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the map
that
>> >someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon with
>> >additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the
right of
>> >the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was actually
given a
>> >DEC engineering drawing designation.
>>
>> Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy
of a
>> .... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to
work
>> for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
><snip>
>
>Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
>1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
UofC ran TOPS-10? I thought they were a -20 site.
<snip>
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
===========================================================================
From: se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <rFpK3.4041$L85.307391@ptah.visi.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533127313
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
X-Complaints-To: ab...@plethora.net
X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 939140823 205.166.146.8 (Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:27:03 CDT)
Organization: Plethora . Net - More net, less spam!
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:27:03 CDT
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com>,
James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
>I was told about, and briefly played an extended ADVENT game that had
>been developed at the U of C, by Dave Long and Michele Medanski and
>others. I've been trying to find a copy or a description of it on the
>ADVENT archive sites recently, but I've come up empty. Does this ring
>any bells for you, Rich, or for anyone else in a.f.c?
The 550 point one? I used to trade email with a guy involved with it;
actually, "Dave Long" sounds familiar. Downside, this was before the Great
Conversion To MH, so I'd have to grovel through 40+MB of compressed messages
to find the email. I think he worked at 3DO for a while.
-s
--
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
===========================================================================
From: James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <23u2o5wy5a.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533133566
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com> <7tcn2n$br2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
Organization: Qwest Communications +1.303.226.6500 Denver Colorado
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
jmfb...@aol.com writes:
> In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com>,
> James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
> >
> >alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
> >> In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
> >> <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> writes:
> >>
> >> Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy
> >> of a.... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to
> >> work for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
> ><snip>
> >
> >Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
> >1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
>
> UofC ran TOPS-10? I thought they were a -20 site.
Ah, I think you are correct. TOPS-20, with DECNet, running a DBMS
system supporting university administration software. And of course a
Fortran compiler and ADVENT. I think I recall trying TECO on the box.
I cannot recall the name of the DBMS system, though...
Mea culpa,
James
--
--
James Powell - Software Engineer/Reverse Engineering - ja...@advancedsw.com
Advanced Software Technologies, Inc.
"Best Tools. Best Service. No Compromise."
===========================================================================
From: James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <23ln9hwlxd.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533234080
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
Organization: Qwest Communications +1.303.226.6500 Denver Colorado
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> writes:
} > > alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
} > > > In article <qh4sgeg1...@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
} > > > <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> writes:
} > > >
} > > > >Speaking of the classic Crowther-Woods 350 point game (as distinct from the
} > > > >zillion-odd later "enhanced" games), does anyone have a copy of the map that
} > > > >someone at DEC drew? It had each room represented as an octogon with
} > > > >additional arrows sticking out of the left of the top face and the right of
} > > > >the bottom face for the up and down directions. IIRC, it was actually given a
} > > > >DEC engineering drawing designation.
} > > >
} > > > Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy of a
} > > > .... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to work
} > > > for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
} >
} > In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com>,
} > > James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
} > > Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
} > > 1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
} > >
} > > I was told about, and briefly played an extended ADVENT game that had
} > > been developed at the U of C, by Dave Long and Michele Medanski and
} > > others. I've been trying to find a copy or a description of it on the
} > > ADVENT archive sites recently, but I've come up empty. Does this ring
} > > any bells for you, Rich, or for anyone else in a.f.c?
}
} se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes:
} > The 550 point one? I used to trade email with a guy involved with it;
} > actually, "Dave Long" sounds familiar. Downside, this was before the Great
} > Conversion To MH, so I'd have to grovel through 40+MB of compressed messages
} > to find the email. I think he worked at 3DO for a while.
Aha! I have tracked this version down, at
http://people.delphi.com/rickadams/adventure/e_downloads.html
There are two games listed on this site that came out of the UChicago,
first a 501 point and then a 551 point, and Dave Long appears to have
been the principal.
Regarding Eric's request for a 350 point map, there is such a map at this site,
but it appears to be recent creation. Now I'm curious about the DEC map too!
Thanks for your help,
James
--
James Powell - Software Engineer/Reverse Engineering - ja...@advancedsw.com
Advanced Software Technologies, Inc.
"Best Tools. Best Service. No Compromise."
===========================================================================
From: alde...@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Oct5153747@netcom2.netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533261104
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 05 5:37:47 PM CDT 1999
Reply-To: alde...@netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com> James Powell
<ja...@advancedsw.com> writes:
>alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>> Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy of a
>> .... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to
>> work for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
>Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
>1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
I worked for the Comp Center (which was still at the site in the basement of
the physics building(s) at 57th & Ellis when I left in 1984); did you work for
them, or for the Graduate School of Business? I don't remember whether GSB had
one -20 or two; we had two (Chip and Dale--though Chip was the newer one) at
the Comp Center.
>I was told about, and briefly played an extended ADVENT game that had been
>developed at the U of C, by Dave Long and Michele Medanski and others. I've
>been trying to find a copy or a description of it on the ADVENT archive sites
>recently, but I've come up empty. Does this ring any bells for you, Rich, or
>for anyone else in a.f.c?
Dave Long was an interesting guy--worked for GSB as a computer operator, and
did the Adventure expansion in his spare time. He left Chicago for a time to
work in the Saudi oil fields, but came back a few months before I left. He
wouldn't allow anyone at Chicago to see the source code, though he gave me a
copy of the parser subroutine since I was a linguist.
(When I got to Stanford, I found the Long 550 point version of Adventure on the
LOTS systems. Not bad considering that Chicago wasn't on the ARPANET at the
time--or at least, the -20s weren't.)
At the first LOTS Town Meeting after I arrived, a student came up to me and
introduced himself as "P1.PALANTIR"--a Comp Center username on Dale, the
academic system. It turns out he graduated from the UofC School of Edudation's
Laboratory School (a K--12 facility)--and I had kicked him off the system once
for playing Adventure during "off" hours. We've been friends ever since...
(Hey, Ed! You reading this?)
Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now
===========================================================================
From: alde...@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Oct5154058@netcom2.netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533264929
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com> <7tcn2n$br2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <23u2o5wy5a.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
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Reply-To: alde...@netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In article <23u2o5w...@dragon.advancedsw.com> James Powell
<ja...@advancedsw.com> writes:
>Ah, I think you are correct. TOPS-20, with DECNet, running a DBMS system
>supporting university administration software. And of course a Fortran
>compiler and ADVENT. I think I recall trying TECO on the box. I cannot
>recall the name of the DBMS system, though...
That would have been the (in)famous System 1022. By 1987, I think Compu$erve
had bought the company, since all of their internals were based on it (running
on top of a very old Tops-10 highly bummed for larger memory). A few years ago
we tried to buy the source, but it didn't work out.
Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now
===========================================================================
From: Eric Fischer <e...@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <7tdvih$ego$1@eve.enteract.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533264930
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Originator: e...@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
> Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
> 1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
Unfortunately, by the time I showed up in 1991 the DEC systems were
gone, and so was any cultural attachment to Adventure. MM was still
the recommended mailer on the Unix systems there until a year or two
ago, though.
Eric
===========================================================================
From: James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/05
Message-ID: <234sg5z6xg.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 533288456
References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <37EACCE2.95AB5BA@plano.net> <anEG3.462$lq3.58345@ptah.visi.com> <btomlin-2409992235520001@atuin.bruce> <37ec6a9c.1172978@news.demon.co.uk> <37EC356C.1A381ABA@plano.net> <X4OH3.224$4X3.3805@ord-read.news.verio.net> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com> <ALDERSON.99Oct5153747@netcom2.netcom.com>
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alde...@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
> In article <23yadiw...@dragon.advancedsw.com> James Powell
> <ja...@advancedsw.com> writes:
>
> >alde...@netcom12.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>
> >> Somewhere, I still have a 2-page XEROX-reduced copy of a copy of a copy of a
> >> .... for who knows how many iterations--given to me when I first went to
> >> work for the UChicago Comp Center in 1977.
>
> >Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
> >1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
>
> I worked for the Comp Center (which was still at the site in the basement of
> the physics building(s) at 57th & Ellis when I left in 1984); did you work for
> them, or for the Graduate School of Business? I don't remember whether GSB had
> one -20 or two; we had two (Chip and Dale--though Chip was the newer one) at
> the Comp Center.
I worked for the GSB computing services dept. in the Walker Museum
building from '87 to '90. I think the GSB only had one -20,
'gsbdec'. I don't see it on the internet now, but I'm not sure that I
ever did.
> Dave Long was an interesting guy--worked for GSB as a computer operator, and
> did the Adventure expansion in his spare time. He left Chicago for a time to
> work in the Saudi oil fields, but came back a few months before I left. He
> wouldn't allow anyone at Chicago to see the source code, though he gave me a
> copy of the parser subroutine since I was a linguist.
<smile> He was the director of the GSB computing services dept. when I
was hired. The last I heard he had moved on, I don't know where. He
kept a factory-fresh BMW motorcycle in his office! When I knew him,
he was still working on the adventure code in his spare time,
translating it to 'C' so that he could compile it on the VAX/VMS
systems they were migrating to.
> (When I got to Stanford, I found the Long 550 point version of Adventure on the
> LOTS systems. Not bad considering that Chicago wasn't on the ARPANET at the
> time--or at least, the -20s weren't.)
Not bad. I was beginning to despair that I'd be able to find a copy,
but the Fortran source is available. Now I get to find out how well
'f2c' works.
> At the first LOTS Town Meeting after I arrived, a student came up to me and
> introduced himself as "P1.PALANTIR"--a Comp Center username on Dale, the
> academic system. It turns out he graduated from the UofC School of Edudation's
> Laboratory School (a K--12 facility)--and I had kicked him off the system once
> for playing Adventure during "off" hours. We've been friends ever since...
> (Hey, Ed! You reading this?)
Heh. Yeah Ed, c'mon!
--
James Powell - Software Engineer/Reverse Engineering - ja...@advancedsw.com
Advanced Software Technologies, Inc.
"Best Tools. Best Service. No Compromise."
===========================================================================
From: Charles Richmond <rich...@plano.net>
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/06
Message-ID: <37FAB5D2.41045DCB@plano.net>#1/1
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James Powell wrote:
> Aha! I have tracked this version down, at
>
> http://people.delphi.com/rickadams/adventure/e_downloads.html
>
> There are two games listed on this site that came out of the UChicago,
> first a 501 point and then a 551 point, and Dave Long appears to have
> been the principal.
>
I think you will find that the 551 point version was due to David Platt. It
was converted to C by Ken Wellsch <kcwe...@math.uwaterloo.ca> from Oz. I am
*not* sure why there was *no* attribution to Mr. Platt on the Adventure page.
>
> Regarding Eric's request for a 350 point map, there is such a map at this site,
> but it appears to be recent creation. Now I'm curious about the DEC map too!
>
There is also a map for the 551 point version of Adventure. And out on the WEB
somewhere there is a walk-through (read "script of completed game) of this version.
I too would like to see the DEC map in octogons (whatever version it is for).
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
===========================================================================
From: alde...@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Subject: Re: ADVENT map (was Re: Crowther (pre-Woods) "Colossal Cave")
Date: 1999/10/07
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Oct7163213@netcom2.netcom.com>#1/1
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References: <7sccil$l67$1@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <qh4sgeg1lj.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep29001513@netcom12.netcom.com> <23yadiwt9k.fsf@dragon.advancedsw.com> <7tdvih$ego$1@eve.enteract.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 07 6:32:13 PM CDT 1999
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Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In article <7tdvih$ego$1...@eve.enteract.com> Eric Fischer <e...@pobox.com> writes:
>James Powell <ja...@advancedsw.com> wrote:
>> Funny, I went to work at one of the the UChicago computing centers in
>> 1987, and Adventure (and TOPS-10) still had a strong presence there.
>Unfortunately, by the time I showed up in 1991 the DEC systems were gone, and
>so was any cultural attachment to Adventure. MM was still the recommended
>mailer on the Unix systems there until a year or two ago, though.
Ah, MM. And thereby hangs a tale!
In 1983, UC wanted badly to get into networked e-mail, and joined a consortium
created by EDUCOM for the purpose of setting up such a thing. It was a star
topology, the center of which was MIT-MULTICS; it was MMDF- and SMTP-based,
with dialup from MIT to the various member sites for delivery and pick-up. As
the Multics system was also on the ARPANET^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HInternet, it would
relay to and from there, as well.
We had already been using MM (about edit level 320 or so) on the -20s for quite
some time. I was given the task of making MM talk to this Edunet; I read the
sources to all the various pieces of MM several times, and concluded that we
needed a newer version. I got in touch with the maintainer, Mark Crispin, at
Stanford's Computer Science Department' computer facility. (Mark reads this
group from time to time, of course, and is well-known in e-mail circles.)
I got the latest version of MM (about edit level 584 or 585), which had a great
deal of added matter for network mail, and started reading. I sat for days in
DDT single-stepping mail transport programs and mail user interfaces, until I
had a handle on how it worked, and started to write.
By mid-summer, 1984, I had it working well enough to get mail on MIT-MULTICS
from UC, so I tried a test message: I sent mail from the Comp Center to MRC's
address at Stanford. I got a furious reply. It seems that Edunet's decision
to call themselves by a top-level domain name ".Edunet" was a violation of all
sorts of Internet protocol--no one would be able to reply to us, it was a crock
and should be shut down, who thought this up?, etc., etc.
I forget how we got around that--I think the systems folks at MIT-MULTICS
agreed to transform Edunet mail going out to the Internet with the "substitute
% for @ and stick an @mit-multics.edu on the end" hack--but get around it we
did. And being fed up with conditions around me (i. e., I wasn't getting to
work on the cool projects), I sent MRC a message saying that if he heard of any
systems programmer jobs around Stanford, let me know.
By return mail came the phone number for the manager of LOTS--and the rest, as
they say, is history.
Oh, the edit level on MM here is 1153...and MRC is still a good friend.
OBfolklore: The Unix port of MM supported *three* mailbox formats, mbox, TENEX
(though they got it wrong), and RMail/BABYL!
Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now